Ok, June is canon... But HOW much?

june is almost def gonna be an ult self as the complete fulfilment of freedom and self-realisation, she will be a union of meat and candy john

"If June is supposed to be Canon because of the hole Tumblerone thing"

June's canonicity isn't because of the Toblerone; Hussie had already been noted by their friends as being personally invested in the fandom-wide June headcanon and Toblerone Wishes weren't even a thing until *after* the June Egbert Real tweets. The Fanlore article on Egbert has some good citations if you want. https://fanlore.org/wiki/John_Egbert#Gender

I think meat John will stay dead. his death was pretty significant so it would cheapen it to revive him for no good reason.

Gotta agree with what's been said, June is most likely the endgame of Beyond Canon John's Arc, probably an ultimate self. IIRC, Candy john has already received visions of June during the whole end-of-act 1 kerfuffle. Otherwise I dont think Meat John is coming back, given the whole "impaled by super-poison infused LE fang" situation

just kinda seems like bargaining tbh

i don't think that meat john could even reasonably stay male in the company of rose and terezi if they knew about june. which y'know, having an alt self in the first place goes against all known metaphysical laws regarding john but we'll indulge a hypothetical here. you get three choices for company here.

you have rose, who can now synthesize dave's habit of calling people gay into her own passive aggressive tactic of giving people diagnoses. there's a joke that could be made involving a certain discredited term but i'll exercise discretion here

you have terezi, whose preferred method of john interaction involves playground insults
and then there's the guy who can reasonably be described as the Bro eidolon

multi egbert theory is pure cope bargaining from people who don't really like the idea of june being canon but don't want to seem transphobic i really don't think it will be entertained. people often point to roxy when it comes to this but ignore/don't know that candy roxy has a similar gender thing going on to meat but didn't have the opportunity to experiment. multiple universes in homestuck have never really been shown to make someone a completely different person unless they literally fuse with another being. you can always see part of their base personality reflected even when their entire life is different.

"June's canonicity isn't because of the Toblerone; Hussie had already been noted by their friends as being personally invested in the fandom-wide June headcanon and Toblerone Wishes weren't even a thing until *after* the June Egbert Real tweets. The Fanlore article on Egbert has some good citations if you want."

Woah thanks for the info! I am kinda of newer Homestuck,

any way my comment was more wondering whether they would approach this as dough June was always present, or Homestuck would do a Homestuck and make so it was paradoxally always true for the in univers concept of "Canon" Egbert, because that would be weirder than she was just trans all along, and Homestuck Is Like That, I just wanted to call it out in case the writers go arcane weird with it just because

:p

It's definitely an interesting question, and one I've been mulling over for a while now. There's enough groundwork in the comic that I could happily accept it either way, but I actually would prefer the genderfluid compatible approach of multiple selves being able to have completely different gender expression, and would be a bit disappointed if it goes the genderstatic essentialist route with regards to the Ultimate Self.

fwiw mansta I think meatroxy and candyroxy will wind up with different approaches to their queerness if only because I want it to be the case because I think that sort of exploration of gender-as-social-phenomena is sorely needed in this landscape of "born in the wrong body with the Gay Gene" trans narratives

but june's gonna transition twice. that one's easy.

I'm not opposed to the idea of Roxy having differing pronouns depending on the instance; he/him for Meat!Roxy, she/her for Candy!Roxy- and lest we forget- there is a third Roxy yet unaccounted for in what I personally call Masterpiece!Roxy- the one John whisked away from the re-retconned pre-retcon timeline in order to fight Caliborn. (How funny would it be for this one to turn out nonbinary? That's my personal headcanon though~)

When it comes to John ==> June Egbert however, the circumstances with her feel a lot more clear-cut to me. Sure, maybe Meat!John will come back, but there is a distinct sense of finality to his role as expressed by both Dirk and alt!Calliope in the Epilogues; then there's the question of if Terezi will even bear any further desire to pursue reviving him when, lo and behold- here is another Egbert- and the one she was actually talking to online during the Epilogues even!

Now, we have yet to hear from any of the Candy Crew past-EOA1, but part of John's frustrations during the big blowout was that he wanted to feel like himself again, right? ...Or, as it will likely ultimately turn out, herself- since silky silhouettes aside, this feels like the right kind of prompt for Egbert to really begin getting in touch with themselves and to rediscover who they want to be going forward in an effort to try to capture that levity that she's been missing for so long~

As for how long that takes and what the path to getting there looks like? That might be too soon to say. All we know is that the genie is out of the bottle now- and there's no turning back.

@0dderty

yeah i think although both of them are trans they have different approaches to it because of different lived experiences but i guess my point is mainly that it doesn't make them entirely different, if they met each other i think they would understand how they turned out the way they did. i think because of the person john is if june and john were separate and met the john one would just be like "oh man i fucked up i gotta transition."

Hard agree with @m

@celesticane I THINK THAT YOu INCAPSuLATED MY WHOLE FEELINGS ABOuT IT AS A WHOLE. I THINK JuNE MAKES SENSE, ESPECIALLY WITH JOHNS PROBLEMS WITH HIMSELF STEP uP IN THE EPILOuGES. IT FEELS LIKE A VERY NATuRAL STEP.

ANYWAYS I WAS ALWAYS WORKING uNDER THE ASSuMPTION THAT JuNE IS uLTIMATE JOHN. I MEAN THE SILLOuETTE LOOKS LIKE A uLTIMATE OuTFIT. AND I FEEL LIKE IT WOuLD BE INTERESTING TO ACHIEVE THE uLTIMATE FORM OF YOuRSELF. TO BE THE *TRuEST* VERSION OF YOuRSELF, YOu WOuLD HAVE TO TRANSITION. I FEEL LIKE THERES ALOT OF SYMBOLISM THERE THAT AT LEAST *I* I CONNECT WITH. I ALWAYS ASSuMED JOHN WOuLD GO uLTIMATE AND THEN IT HITS HER THAT SHES A LADY AND THATS SHES ALWAYS BEEN A LADY DEEP INSIDE. THATS HOW I WAS ASSuMING THEY WERE GOING TO TACKLE THE JuNE THING. VERY INTERESTED TO SEE WHAT THEY DO THOuGH!

IT JuST HIT ME BuT JuNE COuLD ALSO BE HELL TIER JOHN. IT WOuLD ALSO MAKE SENSE BECAuSE THE WHOLE POINT OF GOING TO HELL IS TO IMPROVE YOuRSELF AND BECOME A BETTER PERSON. PERHAPS PART OF JOHNS HELL WOuLD BE REALIZING SHES JuNE? I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE LIKELY ACTuALLY - ESPECIALLY SINCE CALLIOPE SAID BOTH VRISKA *AND* JuNE WERE THE ONES THAT WERE GOING TO HELP THEM OuT OF THE BLACKHOLE. ASWELL AS THE CHERuB STATuES BY THE POINT WERE COLORED JuNE AND VRISKA COLOR. I THINK JOHN GOING TO HELL AND COMING OuT AS JuNE IS THE MORE LIKELY OPTION, IF NOT THE MORE INTERESTING ONE. JOHN SEEMS TO BE THE PERFECT CANIDATE TO GO ON A SELF HELP JOuRNEY.

June enters the plot point and instead of having to face everyone she had unresolved feelings about in her past it's just a gender affirming care clinic.

The toblerone wish's exact wording was to make June "real, the will and direction of the fans." The word canon was not strictly used, so my presumption is that it falls under the "dubious canonicity" of post canon to some degree (to borrow Rose's terminology, a dubious truth value [the wording of the wish might mean June is properly canon *or* just appears in official hs media], near zero essentiality [nothing about homestuck proper changes as a result of June transitioning], but some definitely relevance ,[due to the toblerone, and eventually appearing in hsbc presumably].) Part of the problem is that Homestuck as a property is trying to undermine the idea of "canon" so there's not really a coherent answer to this

ive always thought genderfluid june/john makes more sense

breath is about freedom, direction, change, etc. and well junes an heir, who inherit their aspect. (plus callie called her the embodiment of freedom)

it makes more sense that that would be the case, especially if june is an ultself, since why should he have to be confined a binary when she's gone beyond that??

i also think it works well for him as a character. she probably need to wrap their head around it a bit but john, in my mind at least (i will admit i may be forgetting parts of their character here or getting it wrong, my memory is not great at times), has always been flexible and able to adapt. the problem for him is finding the direction she wants to go in, but once they do they thrive. i prefer the idea of john realising they dont have to conform (gnc june my beloved), that his expression can move and change.

i do kinda realise this veers a bit on the "john and june being seperate" party who just don't want a trans woman in their media due to bigotry but i feel like this fits in her narrative and i like it as characterisation.

i am now realising a good portion of my gender headcanons fall into some form of gnc or genderfluidity. as a certain seer would say, Projection perhaps?

i think that june will be made fully canon in a way that brooks little debate or doubt and people will still say its up to interpretation.

also @psychoraven (is there a way to do replies), why is a genderfluid identity more free than a transfeminine one? is it not an act of intense self-liberation to reach for a version of yourself thats more true, regardless of its position in a binary?

@peppergrinder thats just how i view genderfluidity and my experience with it. you do make a good point though and that is true